its interesting that many that believe in an all powerful God feel they are capable of discerning "theological truth." One of the things that made me very uncomforable with fundamentalism was the idea that these finite beings believed they knew the absolute truth about the divine (theology). Not that the divine has to be uncomprehendable, but I personally didnt feel comfortable asserting that my interpretation of ancient texts was the only way.

It will be interesting to see how the new pope handles the more liberal parts of the catholic church in the US. Maybe we will end up with a similar situation as what is happening with the Episcopal church.

Surprise its a old white guy!

I want a new pope!
One who won't make me frown!
One who'll stay out all night long,
One who likes to party down.

I want a new pope!
One who's loose and fast!
Stealing cars and blasting rhymes,
Doing lines of a stripper ass.

I want a new pope!
One with lots of style,
New rims on the Popemobile,
Gold tooth in his smile.

Since he's so old, perhaps they elected him as a transitional type of guy.

I was discussing with some people that I wish the church's position on women priests, birth control, and homosexuality would change. Then they suggested that I shouldn't be Catholic (not that I practice). An intersting thought, but I was raised Catholic, so it's kind of an identity thing.

Just some thoughts...

I keep hearing this "transition pope" thing and think, they’re saying they want him to die soon, but not that soon.

I've found that Catholicism, unlike other forms of Christianity, is closer to Judaism in the secular, identity sort of way. Just like, someone who does not keep kosher or the Sabbath identifies as Jewish, people who practice birth control and egalitarianism still identify as Catholic.

Years ago I thought about leaving the Catholic church for a more modern Chrisitan church. The more I thought about it, the more it frightened me. I definately felt like I would be losing something I have always identified with.

While I don't always agree with the Church in practice (lets take birth control for example), I do not think the Church should change its stance on many issues including birth control.

yeah brette I agree. The Catholic Church is so conservative its still coming to grips with Christianity.

Hahaha. Some of the stuff that comes out of your mouth Dan...

Why does the Catholic Church need to come to grips with Christianity? What does that even mean?

Back to Brette: I think the Church promotes egalitarianism. Give me an example where it does not and we will discuss.

It doesn't allow women priests.

First off, I believe there is a huge difference between not letting women become priests in a private religious organization vs. saying that the Church does not support the equality and civil rights for women. This rule does nothing to impede what women can do in society, it does nothing to say that women are not equals. The teachings of the Church are the teaching of Christ, and if you ask me Christ is an ultimate symbol of egalitarianism.

Secondly, have you ever stopped to think that the reason the Catholic Church has this rule is because it is believed to be the will of God? The Church is based on the model of the Church that Christ himself and later Peter gave to us. With this in mind, the institution of women priests becomes a much more complex issue.

The Church is not about to go against what it believes is the will of God just to satisfy those whose politcal agendas it comes in conflict with.

No, it's never occurred to me that the reason the Catholic Church has this rule is because it is the will of God. It has how, however, occurred to me that the Catholic Church has this rule to continue to subjugate women. If you believe that what happens in church does not affect what happens in society, why do you bother going to church?

It is a religion Brette, generally a religion is based on a set of views that are considered divine.

To subjugate women??! Tell me how the Catholic church is controlling and enslaving women. That is completely insulting and completely unfounded.

There is nothing in the Catholic doctrine pronouncing that women should share any less roll in society. There is no teaching that women should be subservient to men or hold a diminutive place compared to them. Any belief to the contrary is completely contrived by yourself and completely false.

Yes, I do believe the Church has an affect on the world. The Church I go to teaches of equality among all people, of love, of peace.

You are trying to use a rule that doesn't even effect you because it is YOUR RIGHT NOT TO BE A CATHOLIC, and use it to advance your politics.

I'm not trying to advance my politics. I don't care if the Catholic Church does or doesn't have women as priests. I'm just stating that an organization that does not allow women leadership roles is not egalitarian.

Egalitarian - affirming, promoting, or characterized by belief in equal political, economic, and SOCIAL RIGHTS (i.e., marriage) for all people.

What about homosexuality? Both Ratzinger and John Paul II were strongly opposed to gay "relations" of any kind.

Also, if we're saying "Well, it's based on divine will!" then does it ultimatley matter how many examples of anti-egalitarianism one presents?

Again, the Church does not have the power to prohibit anyone from marrying anyone else, homosexual or otherwise except for within the Church. The Church is not a state (nor cares to be) with the power to impose its beliefs upon anyone as law.

In this sense, the Church characterizes all facets of egalitarian beliefs because the Church gives you the ultimate right: the right to reject the Church.

I started out trying to empathize, saying that people can find comfort in the Catholic Church even if they don't follow all its doctrine. I now see that I was wrong. People cannot find comfort in the Catholic Church even unless they follow all of its doctrine. I understand now and appreciate you explaining it to me.

I think you are pretty close with that last statement. There are many Catholics who are at odds with much of what the Church teaches, and I would say that those Catholics are probably a bit uncomfortable with the Church. Again, like when we started this discussion, even if you are uncomfortable with the Church sometimes it is still hard to pull away from that identity of being Catholic.

That being said, I am pretty comfortable as a Catholic. While I may not see eye to eye with all the Church says, I can understand its point of view, and as a Catholic I'll defend it.

Do I think homosexuals should have the same rights of marriage under the law that heterosexuals do? Of course. Do I think the Church should feel the need marry homosexuals? No. But again, that doesn't mean the Catholic Church (or myself) is for the repression of anyones rights. You can't get married in the Church as a Muslim or Jew either. Is that an infringement of rights?

I know I've beaten this topic to death, but I just think it is important to see that it is not the will of the Church to force itself or its rules upon anyone.

I agree with what you're saying and, like I said before, I didn't understand that people couldn’t find comfort in the Catholic Church even unless they follow all of its doctrine, but now I do. Additionally, I agree that the Catholic Church promotes egalitarianism, however it is not an egalitarian institution, which is all I was saying before.

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