You blame the players for a lock out? Isn't a lock out by definition, when the owners (and by owners I mean capatalist pigs) lock out the union?

In addition to just missing hockey, stadium area bars and resturants in many smaller cities (Columbus, Buffalo) are really hurting.

We aren't talking about the plumbers union here, these guys aren't trying to get a fair wage and better health benefits.

The players refuse to accept a salary cap when they are already overpayed as it is. In many professional sports you can justify such high salaries by looking at the kind of money the players are bringing in to their repective leagues. However, the average NHL salary has nearly quadrupled in the past decade, meanwhile the league has continued to post losses each year. In its last season the league posted a $500M loss.

As far as the impact on the local economy: it is estimated that without a salary cap the NHL would have to lose about 6 of its 30 teams. Quite an impact on those 6 cities.

Without a salary cap the teams with deep pockets can buy all the great players they need and dominate the league. This leaves teams with less cash with losing teams. Those losing teams then turn into losing franchises, which in turn leads to the team leaving that city.

A salary cap keeps NHL costs within reasonable bounds, keeps all 30 teams going, and helps balance out the talent in the league (which is already becoming a problem).

I was kind of joking about the capitalist pigs comment, but I did want to point out that there is a difference between a lock out and strike. Also the players have made concessions. I don’t know all of the intricate details, but the players aren’t stupid.

Additionally, we (as media consumers) do need to questions why capitalist institutions (like most media outlets) quickly and constantly side with the owners. I don’t think that it is because they thinking, “we don’t want to make concessions to our unions, so lets talk shit about other unions.” I think it’s more that in a capitalist society, people exist in this frame where unions don’t make sense, thus stories are told that way.

Regardless of a lack of journalistic centrism surrounding the issue, numbers are still numbers.

I'm not really trying to side with the owners, I'm just a hockey fan looking for what is good for hockey.

According to a recent national poll, only 56% of Americans even knew about the lockout. That's rough.

(no link - sorry, I heard that on npr this morning)

I heard that as well.

I'm a hockey fan too, but I put the blame on a lack of communication and understanding, not one side or the other.

I'm a hockey fan too, but I put the blame on a lack of communication and understanding, not one side or the other.

Right on.
First, neither side is just flat-out 'right' or 'wrong'. They both want money...a lot of it. I remember reading a lot about this situation last summer and would not be suprised to see replacement players, or the whole season gone. No matter what opinions people have, Gary Bettman is NEVER going to agree to anything that would endanger the people he speaks for (the owners and all that comes with that...sponsers, etc). These constituents have also been preparing for a 'no-season' this year by creating a surplus of money specifically to help the cost side of things. Also, last year they were already finding different ways to make money the next year...ie booking 'The Jeffersons on ice' ,or whatever, for the would-be NHL game days. The players just can't cover their financial asses like that. So they look at other options. They obviously don't make as much in other leagues or other countries, but it IS enough and can be a lot. I went to see a Frankfurt Lions game, and half of the players were Canadian, and the next two most prevelant nationalities, in order were Skandinavian (I clumped these together) and American. But yes, there were Germans too...haha. And to my surprise the fans combined getting drunk, singing chants AND following the game quite well.

The NHLPA also looks pretty silly because with so many players in the league, they expect to RAISE salaries while the talent is DILUTED. This is exactly why this whole issue is really silly and has an easy solution for those that like the SPORT not just the NHL. It is along the line of Ryans alternative to the NHL and my family (the Canadian side) put it well by saing, there were no worries up north because if you like hockey, there are always other leagues...World or North American that we can turn our attention and money to. And all the people that go only to see fighting, still have boxing. ;)

My personal opinion is that they should contract the league. But before that would ever happen, hell would freeze over and start it's own league there.

What was all that garbage about why media in capitalist societies side with the owners? Please...let's jump off the rings of Saturn now and break this down:

The NHLPA is right about a few things. Such as Bettman's rapid expansion of the last 10 years being a dismal failure, not to mantion to welfare and marketability of the game being completely ignored. They can't deny, though that 30 teams, many in markets where people could care less (Raleigh, Anaheim, Dallas, Nashville, Atlanta) has not only watered down the entertainment value of the game, but also sucked money into player salaries in markets where there is no hope to be competetive OR make a dime anytime soon.

The problem is, the only people who can fix this right now ARE the players. It's alot more complicated than "the owners locked out the players, so it must be their fault." Regardless of how they got to where they are, the reality remains that the league absolutely cannott survive without bringing salaries more in line with revenues. The owners had absolutely NO CHOICE but to lock out the players. Ryan is right, numbers don't lie. 1.8 billion in losses over the last 10 years of the CBA is undeniable. Why buy an NHL team when it's a money-trap? Plus, the NHL doesn't have the big TV contracts other sports have to pick up the slack.

So, while I agree with many of the points made by the NHLPA...in this lockout I support the NHL, and believe they should hold out for SOME form of cost control (if not cost-certainty) or the game will certainly perish. Once that system is established to save the game...a long hard look should be taken at the player's points about the wisdom of expansion, and the state of the game. Hell, I would even be for negotiating the unloading of Gary Bettman if a cap is accepted. :o)

Brendan Shannahan can hold conferences about imporving the game all he wants right now, but the way to start improving the game is to actually PLAY it, and the players are the only ones that can make that happen right now.

Well, I'm off to move to the rings of Saturn because that's where the discussions I'm interested in belong. I'd better take my scarf, I've heard it's chilly up there this time of year.

Lol. Karen, I think you have a schoolgirl crush on Dude. ; )

really...what little liberal schoolgirl doesn't? ;o/

Best T-shirt ever:

"So, you're a feminist? Isn't that cute..."

Seriously, though..I always thought it was Emily who had the crush on me.

Hahaha...Happy Holidays!!!

Nice try, but you're a little off the mark.

I have a schoolgirl crush on Brette.

*blush*

Dude, I did not say "the owners locked out the players, so it must be their fault." I said that there's an overall " lack of communication and understanding." This relates to capitalism in that, in a capitalist society, stories are framed that there are winners and losers. However, stories could be framed that through working together, everyone can win. Right now, everyone, the fans, businesses around the arenas, the players and the owners are losing, why can't we all win?

Dude, your post sounds like the NHL IS the game. What's this garbage about the game perishing? The NHL is hardly the game. And by the way, it's the NHL authorities that have the say in expansion, not the players. They may be for it because more players would be in this particular league, but it's Bettman and the others that have the final say.

hugh...I thought I was clear that I do blame the league for the folly of expansion. Your point about the NHL not being "the game" is well taken, but it is the best league in the world, talent-wise, and the flagship league for the game.

brette - this is just not about the media framing stories in a capitalist society....and definately not about communication and understanding. These are smart individuals with political savvy. The principal players in negotiations are framing the stories FOR the media, in order to gain a public advantage. That's how any public negotiations work, whether it's in collective bargaining, or the statehouse. They completely understand each other...and both sides know exactly what the other side wants. Now it's just about how much each is willing to give up in order to gain it. In the end, we may or may not lose the season but what's certain is both sides will end up giving some. That's the way it works...and the concept is a good one...but there does have to be some level of appreciation for the customers (fans)...and that's not happening right now.

Do you think without capitalism there would even be sports leagues like the NHL, MLB or NFL? It really confuses me when people blame the economic system that allows us individualism and ambition for these breakdowns rather than irresponsible or stupid individuals who use that freedom unwisely.

"The problem is, the only people who can fix this right now ARE the players."

A negotiation involves two sides, last I heard.

Was there this much animosity towards the players during the baseball STRIKE a few years back? I don't give a good goddamn about baseball, so I didn't pay much attention. I've heard lots of hockey fans say "this is why unions are bad", "it's the players fault", etc. Of course professional athletes' salaries are ridiculous. That goes without saying. I'm just curious as to why NHL players aren't deemed as worthy as NBA, NFL, MLB players. They are certainly a big enough draw in Canada, and quite a few markets in the States.

Does the NHL exist in the Canadian markets, or is it exclusive to America? Is there a Canadian Hockey League? I don't think so. The Leafs, Canadiens, Flames, etc., are all NHL teams. I bet there are some VERY lucrative TV contracts and marketing to be had in Canada ("Hockey Night in Canada"...seriously. It's on Tuesdays, or at least it used to be) so let's not forget about the rest of the world. Hockey, like soccer, is pretty popular in other contries. And even smaller markets (like Columbus) frequently sell out games, especially with more established competitiors (I will see the Red Wings before I die. Stevie Y!)

Also, as long as capitalism is on the table, was the powerhouse Cold War-era Russian team state sponsored? Clearly, hockey cannot succeed without capitalism.

Dude, I hate to disappoint, but I only have eyes for Karen. Or Brette. Or Tomo. I don't really know the rest of you, and cyber-crushes creep me out.

I'm sure I'm rambling, but I am seriously rushing.

"The problem is, the only people who can fix this right now ARE the players."

A negotiation involves two sides, last I heard.

Was there this much animosity towards the players during the baseball STRIKE a few years back? I don't give a good goddamn about baseball, so I didn't pay much attention. I've heard lots of hockey fans say "this is why unions are bad", "it's the players fault", etc. Of course professional athletes' salaries are ridiculous. That goes without saying. I'm just curious as to why NHL players aren't deemed as worthy as NBA, NFL, MLB players. They are certainly a big enough draw in Canada, and quite a few markets in the States.

Does the NHL exist in the Canadian markets, or is it exclusive to America? Is there a Canadian Hockey League? I don't think so. The Leafs, Canadiens, Flames, etc., are all NHL teams. I bet there are some VERY lucrative TV contracts and marketing to be had in Canada ("Hockey Night in Canada"...seriously. It's on Tuesdays, or at least it used to be) so let's not forget about the rest of the world. Hockey, like soccer, is pretty popular in other contries. And even smaller markets (like Columbus) frequently sell out games, especially with more established competitiors (I will see the Red Wings before I die. Stevie Y!)

Also, as long as capitalism is on the table, was the powerhouse Cold War-era Russian team state sponsored? Clearly, hockey cannot succeed without capitalism.

Dude, I hate to disappoint, but I only have eyes for Karen. Or Brette. I don't really know the rest of you, and cyber-crushes creep me out.

I'm sure I'm rambling, but I am seriously rushing.

I’m simply challenging the capitalism pushed idea that that there always has to be a winner and a loser, that there can never be multiple winners or losers. I don’t have time to go into all of this right now, but I’m sure you can goggle cooperative or coalitional game theory and find out that there is an economic basis for cooperation.

Consider this excerpt from today's Detroit Free Press"

"As a group, the Wings' players have lost almost $21 million.

That last number is significant, because the team takes in about $1 million from ticket sales per exhibition and regular-season game at Joe Louis Arena.

The team has lost five home exhibitions and 16 home regular-season games so far, including the game against Vancouver that was scheduled for tonight.

So the team has lost about $21 million in ticket revenue. Basically, the payroll savings balance the lost ticket revenue.

Now, the team loses more money on concessions, merchandise, salaries of those still employed and so on. But the numbers seem to show the lockout is far less painful for the team than it is for the players.

And consider that some other teams, like Detroit businessman Peter Karmanos' Carolina Hurricanes, claim they are losing less money by not playing than they would if they were.

The league seems willing and able to sit out the entire season."

So the most prolific franchise in the NHL, and most valuable, the Red Wings, is breaking even on ticket revenue losses vs. salary saved. This is why the players are the only ones that can save the season. The owner know what they need in order to operate, and they CAN'T settle for anything less. The money won't BE there for the players in the future. You guys are so funny...how you ignore the specifics of a situation to cling to your "anti-man" biases...even when the OTHER men are still multi-millionaires. Many of the NHL players right now have much more spare change than their bosses.

As far as HNIC goes...it IS huge in Canada. But Canada is a much smaller country, with smaller media markets in general. The money is a drop in the bucket. Then consider Canadian franchises are at a disadvantage from the get-go, due to the value of Canadian vs. US currency. This is all pretty well documented...

You kind of made my point with the Soviet comparison. That was ONE TEAM...put together by the government to go out and kick everyone's ass for the sake of national pride/domination. They were PUNISHED if they ever lost, and they didn't play in leagues anything like our NHL.

By the way, I've seen the Wings several time. Stevie has been my idol since I was 16. U wore his number 19 in all the high school sports I played. If you want to see him play, you better hurry...he's turning 40 next year.

"I'm just curious as to why NHL players aren't deemed as worthy as NBA, NFL, MLB players."

Like I said before, those sports *make* money. 70% of NHL revenue goes to paying the players. The NHL is running on a $500M a year deficit now. It isn't a matter of worthiness, it is a matter of simple mathematics: The money is not there.

"Is there a Canadian Hockey League? I don't think so."

There are plenty of minor leagues in Canada that are quite popular, collectively referred to it as The Canadian Hockey League. They have The Western Hockey League, The Ontario Hockey League, and Ligue de Hockey Junior Majeure Du Québec.

"I bet there are some VERY lucrative TV contracts."

Yeah, I'm sure the NHL has completely missed the fact that hockey is popular in Canada and probobly hasn't even tried getting any TV contracts...

Speaking of how popular and lucrative NHL hockey is in Canada, explain to me why 1) the Canadiens were put up for sale 4 years ago and 2) why not a single Canadian city made a bid for the team.

"Also, as long as capitalism is on the table, was the powerhouse Cold War-era Russian team state sponsored? Clearly, hockey cannot succeed without capitalism."

Are you joking me??!! I'd play some great hockey too with a gun to my back.

Speaking of the relative popularity of major sports and the difference in the size of US and Canadian markets, think about this for a second.

In a recent gallup poll 64% of Americans considered themselves to be NFL fans. Taking in account that there are about 174M Americans between the ages of 18-64, that makes for 111M NFL fans who I would consider to be of consumer age.

That number is nearly 4 times the population of Canada.

"I’m simply challenging the capitalism pushed idea that that there always has to be a winner and a loser, that there can never be multiple winners or losers."

Brette..the reason you don't want to go into it is because it's nuttier than a 4-balled goat. Nobody has ever suggeted there can only be one winner and one loser in this...except you. Right now it's all about both sides trying to get the BEST COMPROMISE POSSIBLE for themselves, but the fact that there will be a COMPROMISE is not in question.

Granted some people abuse the notion of competition, but I think most parents raise their kids with a healthy notion of competition...that you don't always win and that it's ok. And yes, even that there doens't always have to be a clear winner and loser in every aspect of life. I think that notion in of itself is a product of capitalism. :o)

Ryan...we seem to be on the same page here. Do you feel dirty again?

"Nuttier than a 4 balled goat" Hahahahahaha. I need to start using that one.

Let me start by saying I know nothing about anything, especially about this topic, except that I hear people are having more sex because of this, which I think is important.

So my question is why aren't internal free market forces able to, by definition, find the best solution to all of this, why must there be any caps on players' salaries, why must the league size stay exactly what it is... if a team's owner wants to keep losing money let them do so otherwise they should get cheaper players and if that means they lose more and eventually go out of business... well, I guess I don't care what happens to those teams regardless but unless the players are idiots (legally) they should be allowed to make the decisions that are in their best interest, right? Why force what we think is right on them (unless, of course, they are idiots). If they demand too much money and find themselves out of a job in a few years it's their own fault, right? OTOH, what's stopping the team owners from deciding (conspiring) to not sign anyone above a certain price in the future, without telling the players in advance?

Also, if it's that the players don't want these team owners to make a killing off their backs maybe the way to allay that is to make the players into co-owners, and thereby putting their salaries more inline with attendance due to performance. But that might be communism.

P.S. We should cap CEOs' salaries too.

Dude: Brette pointed out what was specifically not mentioned in the story, conspicuously or not. And is it so crazy to mention that fans and local economies are negatively impacted (aka "losing") by this?

Tomo: I think it is important to remember that while each team is independent in many ways financially, they are still all part of a single league. So to say "screw it, let those teams go under" isn't a very feasable option when you view the issue from the league standpoint. A CEO wouldn't say "ah fuck it, let that division run itself into the ground."

As far as owners conspiring together to impose a "secret" salary cap -- I don't see that working. There will always be the deep pocketed owners out there who are willing to spend the extra cash to get/keep the players they want.

Dude: Haha, nah I got over my qualms with agreeing with you on this and that. However, I do think there are some folks on here who just argue with you to argue with you.

Owners conspiring is called "collusion" and it's illegal in any business where there is competition, even pro-sports. If you recall, there was a collusion lawsuit in baseball back in the 80's. Owners don't touch that with a 10-foot-pole.

As far as businesses suffering, I'm not sure why I left the impression that I didn't agree with Brette that it was unfortunate. Actually, I think it is probably the most unfortunate thing about all of this...that ordinary people are having their livelihoods affected because millionaires want to make more money. Maybe I need to spell out the areas where I agree more...

Ryan...they TOTALLY argue with me for the sake of it. It's awesome and the reason I keep coming back! Don't ruin it...

Ryan...maybe it's time to replace the "most blatantly communist site on the web" with:

"disjointed.org - nuttier than a 4-balled goat."

You idiots... that's why you collude in *secret*! God, remind me never to enter into any illegal conspiracies with you two.

Hahahaha....nice.

I'm usually really good at hiding illegal activity. You should have seen me about 6 years ago. I drove into a ditch/snowbank WASTED...when the cops showed up I had a casual conversation with them while the tow-truck pulled my car out. They totally bought the "slippery" excuse and didn't even test me. I got my car back, drove the remaining 500 ft. or so home, and vomited profusely.

For the record I NO LONGER drive drunk.